Lily's Hypocrisy 

While I can't say I think very highly of Lily, or that I've never thought her non hypocritical, I've never thought about it in this light before. How can she say Mucliber is "evil" and James is not, when we know that James - even then - was hexing people "just for fun." How can she degrade Severus for staying loyal to hisfriends while, in the same breath, staying loyal to hers?

I had an interesting thought while reading the part about Lily accusing Severus of something she wasn't even sure he had a part in: Lily accuses Severus of "calling everyone of [her] birth 'mudblood.'" If that was really the case, why didn't she say anything before? That's not something that would just be swept under the rug - especially by Lily. If she's really been "making excuses for [him] for years why did she wait until that precise moment to express her frustrations about it? She certainly wasn't above giving him a piece of her mind on any other subject.

Oh thank you for posting it! It is exactly what I think about Lily, but never was able to put it exactly the way I wanted to :)

Exactly, and I can not even begin to say how glad I am for finding that site. My perspective has changed on a few points, I'm happy to say, and I feel a little wiser. Wiser, and sadder.

While I do not doubt that Severus loved Lily to the very moment of his death, I also do not doubt that, in the end, he really *did* care for Harry. One of the posters pointed out:

"But I'm not sure how to read his "looking stricken" after Dumbledore's "we sort too soon," and especially the inclusion of that memory in the recollections destined for Harry. We've discussed that maybe he looks stricken because Dumbledore insults his choice of House. Or maybe Snape was just too overwhelmed by the bravery compliment. But why show it to Harry?... All the memories that end with something Dumbledore said have the effect of underscoring Dumbledore's words - as in, behold, this is the truth, but I refused to acknowledge it at the time."

Remember also that when Severus became furious when Dumbledore finally told him the real reason they had been protecting Harry, Dumbledore asks him, "have you grown to care for the boy, after all?"

At first, Severus insists it's for Lily.

But...I think of that and of the last line in what I quoted.

"Behold, this is the truth, but I refused to acknowledge it at the time."

Yes, I've no doubt he wanted to see Lily's eyes, one last time, before he died. No doubt at all. But what if it is three-fold? What if he *does* care and wants to see Harry as he *really* is, not as the image of James Potter, at last? What if he wants to go to the Afterworld knowing he's given Harry, the child he has helped raise for seven years, the tools with which not only defeat Voldemort, but to survive the battle, as well? Dumbledore has always believed that Love is the strongest magic there is, and I believe it too; Severus had to have as well. Perhaps he also believed that showing Harry that he loved Lily would help empower him when he needed it most.

"I was never your enemy, Harry, even though you always thought I was...even though I couldn't be your friend." That's the thought in my heart right now.



The funny thing is that I found that site while doing research for the fanfic I'm writing. I wanted to know whether or not circumcision would be practiced in the Wizarding world. It's as likely to be an elective decision there as it is here, but I was curious to see if any over-analyzing fan/freak had written a paper on it yet. :-))

This is exactly what I have been saying for some time. It would have not been a surprised if Severus had found out that lily and James had been carrying on for sometime and just waited for a reason to come down on him and break from it off. Plus if she was in love with him before the mudblood incident she wouldn't have said "my friends ______." That statement to me shows influence from others was involved. The demon Peer Pressure.
It also shows that she had already fallen for James and just didn't have the guts to tell him so an excuse was the easy way out.

Yes younger readers are not going to see what experience of the world has taught older readers. That is to read between the words a person is saying and hear what they mean. This is the reason I reed this series with my son and discussed it. This was a lesson from book one to seven on human character. It is not only a good read but a good lesson on people and the nature of evil and mean people. Voltemort comes in a plain brown bag but then there are the pretty wrapped presents that contain the exact same evil when opened.

Great read. LOVE THIS. THANKS FOR FINDING THIS, BlackHound.

Loved it!!! Thanks so much for posting it. It was a brilliant read, and I also thoroughly enjoyed going through the very well thought out responses and comments at the end. Specially the discussion on the "Why Blaming Lily is Rooted in Misogyny - Part 1" essay.

@bri-marie: Marvelous points.
@lilith84 & frostydragon: You're both very welcome, and frostydragon, I think you're right on the money.

I wonder if, when Dumbledore told Severus that the Potters had put their trust in the wrong person, he thought "no, *Lily* put her trust in the wrong person". In a way, so did Remus. Sev and Remus both got done by the same group, really. Severus clung to Lily even after she began to drift because she had been all he joy he'd ever known, up to the moment she became one of the Marauders and she threw him away; Remus clung to James and Sirius because they were the only ones who accepted him, even though he may not have agreed with what they did to Severus. The callous disregard Sirius showed for them both is simply horrible. He set up his "friend" at his most vulnerable moment while he set up someone who was underserving of his rancor for a disgusting "joke" that could have gotten both of them killed, AND put Dumbledore at risk. You don't need to think that if James had failed in his little part of the "prank" and Remus *had* killed Severus, that Remus wouldn't have been taken to Azkaban (or worse), child or not, and Dumbledore would have been out as Headmaster.

In a terrible way, Lily sealed her own fate when she turned away from Severus and embraced James Potter, just as Sirius sealed his own fate by not owning up and being a man, by not even acknowledging that he and James were wrong, and by the way he treated those he felt were beneath him. Even Dumbledore knew this; he told Harry that basically if Sirius had treated Kreacher with some kindness, Kreacher would not have so happily betrayed him to their enemies. It's tragic that both Severus and Harry suffered because of the horrible choices James, Sirius and Lily made.

@nene: You're welcome! I became so absorbed in reading all of that that I completely forgot the reason I had gone there in the first place. :p

Thanks for posting this gem ! Very interesting light shed on Lily, which I had always considered at best ambiguous as a character, at worst as a very poor "friend". She's not a white, pure lily, but like everyone, coming in all shades of gray.

The passage about Severus looking "stricken" about Dumbledore's remark that "sometimes, they sort too soon" is to be replaced in its context. Both men had just talked about Karkaroff being afraid of the Dark Mark becoming more and more vivid. Severus had said then that Karkaroff was afraid and wanted to run away. Dumbledore pointed out then that Severus would not do so. The Potions Master replied that he believed he had more courage than that. The issue of courage is there - the very Gryffindor quality. Dumbledore's remark means that Severus could have been sent to Gryffindor - with all the consequences we may imagine : no company with future Death-Eaters, being in the same house as Lily, Lily's defense of Severus maybe more effective, etc. No House rivalry. Only the pure display of pleasant/unpleasant personalities (I'm not telling who is what, letting you guess). That was why Severus was stricken : he must have perceived that his life could have taken a whole another turn, another fate. The kind of discovery that can make anybody shake.

Also, the post made me realize how deeply Lily was influenced by the Marauders and their questionable attitude. Their hypocrisy. I wonder if Severus had realized how inconsistent Lily had been, between her words and her behaviour - and it must have pained him. He must have felt some kind of betrayal then, which must have hurt him a lot.

Hypocrisy : let's take Sirius' attitude with Kreacher. He told Harry that the way we can judge a man is through his attitude not towards his equals, but towards his inferiors. Yet, he did ill-treated Kreacher - a being inferior to wizards in the wizarding community. To the point Sirius was betrayed by the elf, which eventually led him to his death.

Similarly, Peter must have acted like Kreacher, this time towards James by betraying him to Voldemort. James and Sirius were good students while Peter was rather on the verge of nearly being a Squib. They helped him but when we read between the lines, we can perceive a certain superiority of James and Sirius towards Peter. Hence Peter's subsequent treatment of his "friends" and his betrayal.

In a sense, Lily betrayed her friend Severus. I had been shocked too by her sentence "I've made excuses for you for years." Honestly, my friend would tell me that, I would think 'well, does that mean that our friendship had been *faked* for years then ?' When one fakes friendship or any other beautiful sentiment, I call this hypocrisy. Severus may have been a socially impaired teenager back then, but he was not a fool. He must have been devastated by this remark, realizing that Lily had not been able to reciproque at least his friendship (I'm not even talking about love).

One message of the HP saga would be that arrogance leads to hypocrisy. Hypocrisy leads to humiliation. Humiliation leads to anger. Anger leads to betrayal. Betrayal leads to death.

Also, it is the fact that Severus had asked Voldemort to spare Lily. Voldemort agreed (though I suspect he knew all about Severus' motives and just sought further leverage over the young man, like requiring him to kill her later, for example). Hence he gave the choice to Lily between dying or letting her son die. That is THAT choice that triggered off the blood charm that protected Harry till his 17th birthday. Otherwise, no doubt Voldemort would have killed Lily, and Harry later, like he had killed James a few minutes before. Without Severus' courageous choice to ask his Master to spare Lily, there would have been no sacrifice, no protection, no Harry, no story.

Even Dumbledore was not fully aware of all this, when he told Severus he was disgusted by his request. I think the Headmaster realized the meaning of all this when he noticed that the boy had been protected by his mother's sacrifice.

Severus loved in an unconditional way. In a sense, he knew more about love than any of the Marauders - that remained stuck in their arrogance, certitudes and prejudices. That's what I like in him.

I enjoyed reading the article and all the posts here, especially BlackHound : true that because of James', Sirius' and Lily's poor choices, Harry and Severus had to suffer so much, and even had to give up so much, including their life (in Severus' case).

I think you're right about Voldemort agreeing to spare Lily, leverage for later down the line.

I know there are people who think what Lily did was a reflex action, and to that I say "bullshit". That is the one thing left I can still defend, since I've lost all respect for her otherwise. She knew exactly what she was doing when she made the Loving Sacrifice. She knew how ancient that Magic was. Even Moldybutt himself said so in Goblet of Fire. What was it he said? "Very ancient magic. I should have expected it." AH! But he didn't. Because Love was something the freak bastard just couldn't comprehend. Why would someone willingly lay down their life for another? Why would a man spend the rest of his life loyal to a woman long dead, only to lay down his own life for her and the child she saved? Obviously, Severus knew something that was far beyond Moldybutt's ken. The magic of Severus' sacrifice was just as ancient and powerful as Lily's, and Harry had the wisdom to make use of the gift at the crucial moment. Moldybutt certainly didn't show it, especially not to Harry, but I think the revelation rattled him. There was that annoying ancient magic again. That irritating four-letter-word. And even when Harry tried to point out to Moldybutt that *he* had basically made the same sacrifice that his mother and his teacher had made, the Dark Lord still did not comprehend. Hate and Darkness *do* have power, most definately, but they can not defeat Love and Light.

I'm reminded of one of my favorite deleted scenes from Goblet of Fire...at the Yule Ball when Karkarov confronts Severus about their Dark Marks, and Severus tells Karkarov, "I have nothing to be scared of, Igor. Can you say the same?"

I don't quite understand how the author of this article can claim that all these things were something JKR didn't want us to notice. I think it more likely that she was perfectly aware of all those aspects. Or why shouldn't she?

^Not necessarily. Often times writers have a mental image of a character built up so firmly in their heads that they can't see that the character that actually develops throughout the series is the complete opposite. Joyce Carol Oates is a perfect example - she had planned on making the protagonist a strong, heroic, independent female, but what came out was a weak, shallow, easily influenced little girl.

JK could have wanted Lily to be this pinnacle of pure goodness and (possibly because of the death of her mother)been so blinded by this desire for her to be so, that she didn't stop and look at Lily's character development and go, "That's not really what I intended" or "That's not coming across the way I want it to."

Precisely. Sometimes we can't see the obvious, even in our own creations.

JAlanaE: Rowling herself has said that she does not understand why so many people love Severus. She doesn't understand because, even though she says she enjoyed writing him, she modeled him on a teacher she hated. So even though she created him, she can't see what we, his fans, see in him.


I myself have had readers of my work tell me things about my own characters that I never noticed or thought of.