I flip flop on this issue more than any POLITICAL issue.

I figured, we could use with a taste of philosophy over at this spot. What do you folks think? (Expect my answer to change. To be honest, I'm only choosing hard determinism because it's the easiest to argue).

you chose

Don't mistake me for liberal. I'm libertarian. :P

I am actually writing a book series that deals with free will.

I'd be interested in that book series, J. I used to be hardcore libertarian until my philosophy professor stumped me. LOL!

I'm actually more of a soft determinist than a hard determinist. Everything is caused. I find that difficult to argue with. But we still have the choice to overcome those causes.

OR we've been pre-determined to ignore the cause...

Ah, the dilemma. We've been programmed to deliberate, to think, to rationally think of every option, and yet when we make our choice... Were we always meant to make that choice? Based on genetics, based on environment, based on personality, based on how we were brought up?

Case study: A child was raised Catholic in a Jewish neighborhood in New York City. The child has a rebellious personality. As he grows, he decides (after twelve years of rigorous Catholic upbringing) that he would rather be Jewish.

Conclusion: This is a case when a child overrules his upbringing. But was it his personality that influenced his choice? Maybe it was his environment?

Everything is caused-- and therefore no choice we make is of our own free will.

I believe that I have a choice, and what I do is conscious free will.

Anyone want to argue for (philosophical) libertarianism?

well. i believe God has given us a free will. The power to choose the choices that we have.

Cinders, in answer to your question. He sill made the choice. He was influence maybe, but he made a choice to convert into a Jew.

In that case, you're a soft determinist.

In a philosophical argument, greekthegeek, religious points don't exactly hold... But I can accept your point of view.

The point of the scenario, greekthegeek, was to show that because of all of the causes, there was no other choice he could have made.

I think the Free Will Problem is probably not exactly a layman's argument, but I find it interesting. As I said, I used to be a hardcore libertarian until my philosophy professor stumped me.

If you deliberate and deliberate and finally make your choice, you assume that at any time in that deliberation you could have chosen anything. But regardless of how long you deliberated, or how long you thought about it, perhaps you were always going to make that choice.

Hard determinism is different from fate. Fate dictates that your life is already planned. Hard determinism doesn't suggest that at all. All it's saying is, despite what life throws at you, your genetics, personality, environment and sense of morality and justice is what drives you to make your choices and since all of your choices are motivated by these things, you cannot be technically considered free in the sense that libertarians believe they are free.

Am I making sense to anyone?

Ahh but I view very few things in life as cause-effect. I more so take the view of 'contributing factors,' but maintain that I make my own choices for good or ill.

I also feel to hold any other view is a cop-out in that it relieves you of having to take personal responsibility.

And yet, judicial systems do it all the time.

The fact that we have free will causes things to happen. Our free will is the cause and the effect, if that makes any sense at all to anyone. Hopefully, I'm not crazy.

It doesn't make immediate sense to me, but points for the philosophical paradox! LOL! Love it.

I shall ponder this wisdom.

Like I said, I'm more of a soft determinist than a hard determinist, but all my papers are on hard determinism because it's the easiest to argue/prove.

Thanks :D
Sometimes, I get rare moments of philosophical inspiration ;)

Everything is caused thats true - that doesn't mean you don't have choices though. I mean the effects shape who you are so i guess you could say because of the cause you become someone who is predispisitioned to react in a certain way- meaning your not free your choice was shaped by the cause and the effect it had on you. That doesn't mean you didn't make that choice though, yes you where shaped by cause and effect to choose what you did but you still had options and you still had a choice. Thats what makes us free even if we are always going to choose one thing over another we still have the choice not to.
Am i making sense i mean it makes sense in my head having trouble getting it out properly.

I'm a Muslim so I believe that everything is in god's hands.

When you get into these things, it's all about how you define the words. What is free will, exactly? What is personality? Cinders, in your example, you said that maybe his choice was influenced by his personality. So did his personality stop him from having free will? I think our choices make our personality, not the other way around.

I just had to sit through a presentation in my philo class about this topic... :/

I believe you make you own choices but then there are some things that happen without your choice. I'm more of a libertarian, but i do believe some things happen for a reason and all..

in life you must always give up something to gain something.I also belive what we do and how we act are all caused by things that happen to you but that does not mean you can not rise above the sorrow that fills this earth "BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT A DREAM IS!" and even dreams can come true

Things are caused by the decisions and actions you decide to take whether it will make a difference or not in the grand scheme of things, some are in our control, some arent, but im firm believer the life experiences, people you meet and things you learn make a big impact on who you are in the end :)

I believe in Soft Determinism. We have free will to an extent, but it is excerised within constraints such as social control.

MAYBE THIS 1

Well, I picked this because I wanted to pick it, didn't I?

Not that all decisions are easy to make, because your conscience wants to help with that decision. But in the end we always make decisions no matter how horrible they are.

But what effects your decision? The way you were raised, your experiences in life, the morals you have been taught, the logic you have gained, and your knowledge of a situation, which may or may not be limited. Did you choose all of those things? No. So how can you say that you freely make that choice, when influences beyond your control are urging you to make that choice?

is this like a nature vs nurture kind of question

I believe in a bit of both. I understand that a lot of things are caused, but I also just do things because I feel like doing so - sometimes, instead of letting anything influence my decision, I just go for it randomly... I think that is probably easiest definition of free will...

Whilst I do believe people have the ability to make choices and do as they please to some degree there is control. Such as enforced laws; one can still murder but if caught they'll be punished.