Sk8er__grl Whoa, her abuser? that's her father. He is not abusive as to let her roam the open sea as much as she wants. He doesn't make fun of her he doesn't beat her. He had ONE FRICKEN RULE and that rule was only so she doesn't DIE! She could have said, "hey daddy, I saw these humans up there and they didn't try to kill me so maybe check them out for yourself?" No, she says, "Daddy I don't care that human is really hot!!! And guess what I'm not a child! So I'm just gonna go and get a spell from your nemeses. She wasn't trying to walk away from the fight, she then preceded to go to Ursula! How is that not causing a fight? If anything, she was trying to start round 1 of the fight by taking it to whole new levels. Is that the definition of mature, I try so politely to ask you?

BelleRose829 You do seem to be dodging what I said about Ariel not listening to Sebastian amount other things. Please adress each accusation against your client, Ariel, or it can't be taken seriously. Keep in mind this isn't about any other princess just Ariel alone. Triton is OVERBEARING to the point where her run away mission is understandable, moving on from that her attitude towards him, even if he is a bit unruly, is uncalled for. Please address the following. Copy and Pasted: She Doesn't say "I'm sorry daddy! I didn't know-" she says "Daddy,I didn't mean to, I didn't know" When she DID mean to runaway leaving him heartbroken and she DID know the consequences if she failed. She knows she's leaving her father on bad terms, she should think that he still loves her, even if it's abusive he does this all out of love. She never apologizes and even when an apology is in order (missing the concert) she refuses blame "I just forgot" and when her father shows compassion "Do you think I want to see my youngest daughter snared by some fish eaters hook?" Instead of thinking "Well he's trying to look after me." Or hear him out Ariel shoots back "I'm 16! I'm not a child!" There was no reason to be that rude towards him when he was expressing concern. Also Ariel lacks concern, when Flounder and Ariel are exploring and Flounder gets stuck and scared she laughs it off, then helps him out, then she goes back to exploring. When Sebastian says "I hope you know what I go through for you young lady." She doesn't pay him any attention. How, may I ask, is that reasonable? She never takes blame or responsibility. Remember this is a debate, not a flame war. Prove me wrong that how we get places.

iwasneverhere @Sk8r_grl: Triton had a bunch of rules. Don't play music. Don't interact with outcasts from Atlantica. Don't go to the surface. No contact with the human world, because that is strictly forbidden. Don't collect human things from sunken ships. Yes, he is merman full of rules. He is an abuser, and yes--- even abusers show concern for their victims--- so that their victims let down their defenses a little bit because of the compassion they think is being shown. Then the abuser hurts them some more. I'm done here. I haven't dodged your arguments. I've met them head on. I'm sorry you despise me for loving Ariel and seeing that she is flawed--- and acknowledging that every other princess in the DP line is flawed, too. I don't know why me pointing that out angered you so much, but I guess that is your take on things. I emphasized certain words in my argument, because you emphasized certain words in your rebuttal to me which did feel like you were screaming. This has devolved into a sort of he-said-she-said argument without end. I will stop defending Ariel, since you make out her flaws to be most incorrigible above all others of the Disney princesses. I guess Ariel should deserve no mercy for her behavior. I guess she deserves the hatred she gets from you and everyone else. This argument is over. The defense withdraws its argument. Ariel is found guilty of irresponsibility, hurting her father, and jeopardizing everyone in the ocean. I hope you're satisfied.

avatar_tla_fan I was going to come back into this debate but I guess it's over now. :-/

BelleRose829 But if Ariel taught you anything, didn't she teach not to quit. I'm simply asking you to to address everything I don't think you quite touched on. Ariel is in the clear for running away as she is avoiding abuse, but you also should also touch on the others things. And if you quite now I'll have to settle with the opposing side. Again I don't hate Ariel she used to be my 5th favorite you just got to prove her innocence, but if not I guess that means she is guilty.

BelleRose829 Shame this was a very good debate, I felt I was about to reach a conclusion. She was basically half innocent, but with no further allegations it's going to be impossible to deduce an answer. Hmmm what a pickle. Afraid to say I'm not satisfied in the least.

Sk8er__grl ^I don't hate you for your opinion on Ariel. I don't understand it, but I'll respect it. Even though I think you have a problem respecting other people's opinions. I respected you a lot more for your first argument (second? idk) because it was insightful and you weren't throwing anyone under the bus. This has gotten out of hand and like Bellerose said is a flame war. if that's the way you want it, fine. Then leave. You still haven't addressed Bellerose's case though. Ariel's attorney has left due to dissatisfaction and Ariel has been sent to community service. *bangs gavel* Meeting adjourned. Edit: If anyone else still wants to join I'd be willing to debate :)

iwasneverhere @BelleRose: I'm sorry that I can't make things clearer. I've attempted to explain the abuse dynamic between father and daughter. I will repeat what I said to Sk8r_grl, because this does apply, even in my own life. "Triton is an abuser, and yes--- even abusers show concern for their victims--- so that their victims let down their defenses a little bit because of the compassion they think is being shown. Then the abuser hurts them some more." Ariel recognizes a familiar compassionate phrase that triton has said to her, before. But this compassion he shows never lasts. He is compassionate in one instance, and rages at her in another. Ariel sees through this false compassion and says," I'm 16. I'm not a child anymore!" ---as in--- daddy you're still treating me like a little kid. Please treat me like an adult. How do I know your compassion is genuine, daddy?" If Ariel stayed in the sea with Triton, he would have compelled her to sing for him at every fete he wanted. When not in rehearsals, he would have locked her in some kind of private quarters until she--- came to her senses. Failing all of this, she would have been married off to a worthy merman as quickly as Triton could arrange it. I've said "I just forgot" to my mother a number of times. In my own mind, I really DID just forget some task that she wanted done, but she explodes over it all the same. She makes a mountain out of a molehill. That is what Triton does when Ariel says she forgot about the concert. As for missing rehearsals, perhaps Ariel brought back music, but found out that Triton was going to use music against her, as a tool of exerting further "control" and making more hoops for her to jump through. Ariel tired of jumping through every hoop arranged by her father and sebastian. So she opted out of going to rehearsals. As for her placing Flounder and sebastian in danger, actually she was not at fault there, either. What she said to Flounder was a bit of sarcasm. She was not really going to let him watch for sharks or get eaten by a shark. She wanted his company. She likes Flounder's company on her adventures. Wherever Ariel goes, Flounder has always accompanied her. She doesn't let him get eaten. As for sebastian, she has saved his position as her father's aide when Triton wanted to withdraw it. She appreciates sebastian's help, and kisses him for it!!! She pats sebastian on the head in passing, saying good night. Despite being not able to speak as a human--- she is capable of showing love and gratitude. Sebastian has a habit of talking out loud. He thinks out loud. Not everything he says, needs a response from Ariel, because most of the statements are rhetorical questions. He doesn't expect an answer, because he knows Ariel loves him and cares about him. Ariel loves Scuttle. Why do you think she spends so much time with a seagull who knows nothing about human stuff? Of course she is as ignorant about the stuff she has collected as he is--- but she enjoys scuttle's company tremendously, and that is why she keeps coming back. On land, Ariel knows that Scuttle is trying to help her, even if he can't sing--- and is actually squawking out notes on the romantic lagoon boat ride. She trusts Scuttle's words, when he says that Vanessa is Ursula in disguise. She can't speak, but she trusts him, and Scuttle wants her to take action! So she dives into the water! At the end she gives both Scuttle and Flounder a kiss for being by her side the whole way through. She is amused at Sebastian's antics with the chef. She loves her friends, and she loves her father, regardless of the fact that they have both hurt each other, and have not always seen eye-to-eye. She wants to start over in her relationship with her father. Triton wants to start over in his relationship with his daughter, since he admired her for taking out ursula. So he gives her human legs, and decides to take a chance that Eric --- and humans in general--- maybe aren't all bad. When Ariel says that "Oh, Daddy! Daddy, I love you!" it is a relinquishing of her fear of him. Ariel is setting aside her fear of her own father, which was instilled in her by the prior abuse she suffered at his hands. Does any of this make any sense? This is what I see in Ariel. A girl with flaws, struggling to have a relationship with her father, and struggling to hold onto her dream at the same time. It's a trust issue. The trust got eroded in Triton and Ariel's relationship. But the ending is beautiful, because both are attempting to restore their trust in each other.

Sk8er__grl This makes a lot more sense. I'm a bit cranky right now so I'm sorry if I come off as mean. I already gave you both props for your arguments. I still don't completely agree but I respect your opinion and I don't feel like fighting.

BelleRose829 Great points! This is what I wanted to hear. However you can't assume that she is missing her rehearsals for that sole reason it must be certain as in shown. With only one thing against Ariel I see this debate coming to a conclusion soon. With only missing rehearsals and some snappy comeback, I can see Ariel is just bold, hot head and impulsive. Yes? She is not guilty nor is she innocent. Perhaps a Jury is is order.

BelleRose829 Both lawyers have executed there allegations perfectly and after further deliberation I find the defendant... not bratty, just very impulsive, ignorant and hot headed. Nothing to bad, but still not ideal. Great work everyone. I have now found I place for Ariel on list. *bangs gavel* case dismissed.

avatar_tla_fan Well, that was interesting.

Sk8er__grl Ok I'm okay with that. She's not being praised but she's not being insulted. We should do this more often. Health criticism is always needed. Props and kisses to everyone.

BelleRose829 Wasn't it? I quite enjoyed it.

avatar_tla_fan Well, I guess I'm supposed to say whether I think they're guilty or not lol. So I say, I think they're all innocent of being "brats"!

avatar_tla_fan Well that was fun. Even though I only participated in the beginning.

BelleRose829 Hmm so everyone's in agreement, superb.

avatar_tla_fan This concludes the debate I guess.

BelleRose829 Unless someone comes along an objects, but yes it's all settled.

avatar_tla_fan We should do another debate! What should it be about this time and is it okay if I type up the article?

BelleRose829 ^Yeah maybe it should be about, hmmm perhaps the discussion of Tiana and Elsa iwasneverhere here dropped a few tiffs about both. That or the Mary-Sue complex, how they don't really do anything for themselves, but some people have a strong view on either side, "Let's Talk About Dreamers" when they aren't very proactive. There is the matter of Anna or Elsa being considered selfish, but no one has really brought it up. If I come up with a good complex I'll be sure to let you know.

avatar_tla_fan Ok.

avatar_tla_fan Hey I made a new one. It's called "let's talk about Anna and Elsa" however there's not as much Anna in it as Elsa.

truth76 Merida did run away.

BelleRose829 ^No she didn't she came right back, she went to cool off she says so herself. And she learns from her lesson in the end so your argument is invalid.