Rant: The Loras Conundrum 

Warning: This is an article written from the perspective of a book reader. Unsullied, considered yourself appropriately warned.

Season 5, Episode 4 caused quite an uproar with book purists everywhere, as Ser Barristan the Bold died fighting to save Grey Worm and the Unsullied from an ambush by the Sons of the Harpy. I won’t get into the details of these arguments, as this article is not about Barristan’s death. Instead, I’ll consider a topic that is no less a hot-button issue among fans of the books; that of Loras Tyrell.

For too long now, I have been becoming more and more dissatisfied with Loras’ character development (or lack thereof). And before we get too deep into this subject, let me be clear that I do not place the blame for this on actor Finn Jones, because he is a fantastic actor who is doing the best with what he is given. No, I lay the blame for the vapid and silly incarnation of Loras Tyrell squarely at the feet of David Benioff and Dan Weiss.

My problems with Loras began in season 1, when he was shown shaving Renly’s chest. I remember that many casual fans of the books got upset at the time because they did not even catch on to the fact that Loras was gay. However, hardcore book fans such as myself picked up on George R.R. Martin’s subtle hints about Loras’ homosexuality, and we thought we knew how his story would play out. Was the chest-shaving scene something that we thought book Loras and Renly would participate in? Not particularly, but that scene was not enough to justify raising the banners and marching on HBO headquarters.

Our first hint at what the showrunners had in store for Loras came in Season 2, when Renly was slain by the Stannis shadow-monster. In the books, Loras is so utterly in love and dedicated to Renly that he slew the guards that were supposed to keep Renly safe in a fit of grief and rage. Then, he took Renly’s body to a secret location, where no one could disturb his final resting place.

On the show, Loras’ grief was never really shown, not to any real extent. In fact, Loras seems to slide easily into court life in King’s Landing, happy to play the pawn in his grandmother’s game to improve her family’s status. This is where the show broke from the books in a major way. In

, Loras requests to become a member of the Kingsguard, a celibate order. With his one true love dead and gone, his desire to love another is gone as well. A direct quote from

 should shed some light into the depth and complexity of Loras Tyrell from the books.

“Ser Loras said. “It is not necessary for a third son to wed, or breed. 

Not necessary, but some find it pleasant. What of love? 

He’s clearly referring to Renly here. On the show, we see Loras become a silly, cartoonish version of his book self. He day dreams about his wedding while extolling the virtues of wearing frilly lace. He is shown having sex with other men, like Olyvar, who is obviously a plant by Lord Petry Baelish, who’s trying to gain leverage over the Tyrells. Even this season, Loras is made out to be a half-wit, as he clumsily stumbles through attempts at consoling his betrothed, Cersei, at Lord Tywin’s funeral.

When Cersei begins to make her power play in

, it is Loras who steps forward to help his family. Highgarden and the Reach are in danger of being sacked by the Ironborn. However, the Redwyne fleet, which is arguably the best naval force in Westeros, is tied up at the siege of Dragonstone. Loras begs the queen to release the ships so that they may go and stop the Ironborn from reaving the Reach, but Cersei denies his request. Loras then demands to be sent to the siege, claiming that he can end it quickly. Cersei allows him to go, knowing or hoping that he will die in the process. Loras lifts the siege of Dragonstone in under 10 days by leading the charge against the gates of the castle himself. Whether the reports of his grievous wounds are to be believed is a topic for another article, but it suffices to say that the heroic and valiant knight who volunteers to sacrifice himself in the books is a far cray from the hollow shell that Loras is on the show.

Back to the show, and Episode 4, “Sons of the Harpy.” Loras was taken into custody by a band of lunatics called the Faith Militant. These men were poorly armed and even more poorly armored. Loras was sparring in full armor with a blunted practice sword, surrounded by his house knights and guard. Still, the Faith Militant were allowed to waltz in, unmolested, and lay their hands on Loras. Watching this happen made my blood boil, as it completed the slow decline Loras’ character had been on for years.

Understand this: in the books, Loras would have cut a bloody path through the Faith Militant had they accosted him in that manner. Loras is a knight of the Kingsguard who holds the respect of even Jaime Lannister, the Lord Commander. He’s a skilled fighter and known to everyone in the realm as a brave and accomplished warrior.

On the show, Loras has become a fan-service device. His sexual exploits and flamboyant personality are a clear case of pandering to a certain demographic, and that demographic should be offended. He is a pale shade of the Loras from the books, and it’s a dammed shame that show-watchers don’t get to experience the true Loras Tyrell.

Hi, my name Razor, and today I’m a sad book purist

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The fact that WiC actually hired a book purist to just moan and whine is one of the reasons I don’t check this site as often as I used to.

So then fuck off. The idiots are ruining this series and ruining the books. Buncha fucktards

How exactly is the show ruining the books? Hot Pie could kill off every single character and all the White Walkers and become King of the Seven Kingdoms, and even then the show would have done absolutely nothing to ruin the books.

The books are still there. If you’re so aggravated by the show, stop watching it. That’s what grown-ups do.

Well, he wasn’t hired *TO* moan and whine about changes from the books. He was on staff, and there the opinions were…

So you’re berating a website you once liked for trying to provide more material for a wider audience? Don’t be such a child just because you disagree with the opinion

WiC only exists bc of the books. So.. Yeah be quiet.

WiC does not only exist bc of the books. If there was no show, this site would be invisible and not nearly so interesting and fancy.

And I love listening the rants of a book purist! To each his own. Anyway, I completely agree with you, Razor. Loras’s is one of the most tragic love stories in the books, and I miss his strength, devotion, and talent with the blade.

I completely agree with this article. Loras was an incredibly well respected knight in the books, admired by the ladies and recognized as a skilled fighter by the men. He is being written as an utter fop in the show, a silly schemer, and it totally cheapens the character. The subtle love story between Loras and Renly was just wrecked in the show, and it diminished both characters by making them caricatures. No fault to the actors, it’s the way they’ve been rewritten in the show by D and D. Disappointing…

Very well said. I as well have been disappointed by Loras’s character development in the show. I really appreciate what you have to say Razor.

Okay, so while we here at Winter Is Coming welcome all viewpoints, I had to weigh in on David’s article once I finished editing it. While I agree that the show has simplified Loras’ character and mined his homosexuality for laughs more often than it needed to, I disagree with a lot of the points made here.

First off, I don’t think Loras is as noble in the books as this article makes him out to be. For example, take his slaughter of Renly’s guards after Renly’s death. That shouldn’t be praised—that’s homicidal, and indicates that Loras has a seriously short fuse. Similarly, his volunteering to rush off to Dragonstone and end the siege in A Feast for Crows was foolhardy. If Loras had stopped to think, he probably would have realized that he was playing right into Cersei’s hands. Loras may have been portrayed as a “half-wit” on the show, but he ain’t no genius in the books, either.

About Renly: in the books, Loras is a teenager who’s going through a serious Romeo-and-Juliet phase. I don’t doubt that his love for Renly was genuine and that he was crushed when his lover died, but when I read Loras’ line about the candle and the sun in A Storm of Swords, I rolled my eyes. That might make me a hateful cynic, but I think it’s a valid interpretation. The line sounds like something that, well…a hot-headed teenager would say about his first love. Loras is very young, on the show and especially in the books—he’ll get over it. In the meantime, I think it’s unrealistic to expect a young guy like him to just turn off his sex drive, so I don’t have a problem with him fooling around with Olyvar.

Finally, remember that, on the show, Loras is an only son, so the Tyrells have a vested interest in having him marry, breed, and stay away from celibate orders like the Kingsguard, which accounts for that plot departure. I do think the show could have done a better job of fleshing out the fine details of Loras’ character, but I feel that he’s closer to the book version of the character than this article would have me believe. Overall, I think we need to cut the kid a break.

Thanks boss! Let’s dissect your thoughts, shall we? MUWAHAHAHAHA **steeples his hands menacingly

First off, I don’t think Loras is as noble in the books as this article makes him out to be. For example, take his slaughter of Renly’s guards after Renly’s death. That shouldn’t be praised—that’s homicidal, and indicates that Loras has a seriously short fuse.

Yes I do think he has a short fuse and while I think killing the men who failed to keep Renly alive was not a noble act, it does go to perpetuating the romantic myth of the Arthurian knight. If say, Guinevere were slain by some surprise attack and the men that Lancelot had placed to guard her failed to stop the ambush, I could see Lancelot losing his mind in a fit of rage and grief that would result in the guards being killed by him.

Similarly, his volunteering to rush off to Dragonstone and end the siege in A Feast for Crows was foolhardy.

Yes – Foolhardy but no less valiant and noble…and caring. He cares for his people and the people of the Reach.

If Loras had stopped to think, he probably would have realized that he was playing right into Cersei’s hands. Loras may have been portrayed as a “half-wit” on the show, but he ain’t no genius in the books, either.

Agree to this, because Loras much like other famous knights of his time, is not particularly smart or at least politically savvy. But I’m not arguing that he’s being portrayed as dumb (even though he is), I’m saying they make him a cartoonish half-wit, which is not the same in my mind.

when I read Loras’ line about the candle and the sun in A Storm of Swords, I rolled my eyes. That might make me a hateful cynic, but I think it’s a valid interpretation.

WHY DO YOU HATE LOVE, DAN? I’m kidding. See, when I read that line, I thought to myself that even after Renly’s death, surrounded by all the temptation in the world in King’s Landing, Loras still carries a torch for Renly, which is why he chose to be a Kingsguard…or at least a major factor in that decision.

Finally, remember that, on the show, Loras is an only son, so the Tyrells have a vested interest in having him marry, breed, and stay away from celibate orders like the Kingsguard, which accounts for that plot departure. I do think the show could have done a better job of fleshing out the fine details of Loras’ character, but I feel that he’s closer to the book version of the character than this article would have me believe. Overall, I think we need to cut the kid a break.

This is a HUGE oversight on D&D’s part. All they need do is mention Garlan’s name and mention that Willas is the heir to High Garden, and Loras’ story is opened up for so much more. I get trying to streamline characters for budget sake, but that has and will always be one of my biggest gripes on Benioff and Weiss, is how they make UNNECESSARY changes like the exclusion of Garlan and Willas.

All in all I see where you are coming from, but I just cannot be moved from my growing anger over the Loras character on the show.

What we know about Ser Loras Tyrell, Knight of the Flowers, from ASoIaF:

We know he is gay. We know he is not a terribly smart fellow, though he is not especially dumb, either. We know he is loyal to his family and was Renly’s lover. We know he can do murder when he is angry — as he was when Renly died. And yes, we know that the Tyrells bankrolled Renly because of Ser Loras’ affections for the would be King. We know he is young, and can be foolish and headstrong. We know he is the second best sword in the Seven Kingdoms, bested only by his brother, Garlan (Ser Loras is the better lance). There is no Garlan or Willas Tyrell in the series, there is only Ser Loras. So perhaps Ser Loras really is the best man with a sword in the Seven Kingdoms — after the Beauty of Tarth, that is. We also know that Ser Loras works very hard at keeping his famed combat skills.

The fact is, we know precious little about Ser Loras from the books outside of the above. We never see inside his head, we never see inside his bedroom. The scenes the show gives us of Ser Loras’ private moments are not at odds with the text of the series — simply your entirely unjustified impressions of Ser Loras from the book series. And those are two VERY different things.

Because frankly, we don’t know much more about Ser Loras that that. He is not a major character. We never see inside his head. We see him from the perspective of Sansa, Catelyn, Jaime and Cersei. That’s it.

Let’s look at what we also know about war and the art of the sword in GRRM’s novels. We know that what you claim about Ser Loras simply cannot be true. We know he would not have carved through the faith Militant, for the very good reason that he was holding a blunted tourney sword at the time and was outnumbered 6:1. Moreover, he was caught by surprise. Therefore, while an armed Loras could have — and would have I think — done just that if he had been armed with a regular sword and not caught by surprise, that isn’t what happened in the show.

It isn’t your claims to being a book purist which are off-putting, rather, it’s your suggestion that Ser Loras is so clearly

in the books than what we see on the series which is untenable. What you imagine Ser Loras to be and what we have been getting on the series are not at odds and are, more or less, entirely consistent with the other.

of Ser Loras from the books is not being met by the portrayal of Ser Loras on the screen. While that may well be so, it is no principled reason to complain about Finn Jones, the writers, or the character of Ser Loras on the series. Not a bit and not at all.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I appreciate the intelligent nature and am happy to have your comments as part of this piece. While I do not agree with you, I do appreciate you taking time to get us in on your thoughts on the topic.

EDIT: I am not blaming Finn at all, I think he’s a phenomenal actor.

I don’t really care if he is gay or not, or if they change his character slightly. However the chest shaving scene to me indicated a serious miscasting. Loras in the show just does not have any sort of athleticism or physique that indicates he could be an armoured warrior let alone one of the best in the land. He is supremely unbelievable as a famed knight.

In the show he is not meant to be a tower of strength like the Mountain (who was about to kill him), the Hound (who rescued him) or even Brienne (who bested him). Clearly some knights will be more quickness than power. I don’t imagine Oberyn had rippling muscles either.

You really nailed it and I never could figure out why Loras just didn’t sit well with me – the actor is great and I like him but he doesn’t convince me that he’s an exceptional warrior in any way… either by his appearance or his actions on the show. After all, in the show we’ve seen him win against the Mountain primarily by trickery and also be defeated by Brienne so if we didn’t know from the books he was supposed to be so great we really couldn’t figure it out from the show, either from the plot line or his stature.

I demand an extra episode next season to cover the fact that the Knight of Flowers pubic hair is not the same colour as in the books

“Understand this: in the books, Loras would have cut a bloody path through the Faith Militant had they accosted him in that manner. ”

No you’re clearly right. The Faith Militant had that montage before they arrested Loras, where they smashed a bunch of stuff, beat-up some folks, and carved signs on their bodies…there hasn’t been a hype montage like that since Rocky IV and Rocky ran up and down a mountain and chopped some wood before he fought Ivan Drago. It’s obvious to me now that Loras really never had a chance. I only wished I had seen the error of my ways before I wrote that. Thank you.”

Yes we talked about it in the comments, which is not the same. But thanks =)

What is the difference between “going over” something and “talking about it in the comments”? It’s too late to edit it, but I happily amend my original comment to read “LOL didn’t we *just* talk about this in the comments?”

Yeah, as a gay man, I find the writing of Loras’ character to be offensive. The actor, however, does a great job of not playing a stereotype–even with the worst fop-inducing mincing words, and he should be commended.

D&D aren’t too terribly interested in shades of grey-it’s giant swaths of black and white..hence cartoony over-sexed Melisandre, cartoony gay Loras, cartoony silent mom Catelyn, cartoony babe with dragons Dany…

At least the actors have the ability to add the nuance, because the screenwriting certainly lacks it.

Honestly, I just don’t think D & D are that cerebral–or sophisticated enough–to accurately put GRRM’s page to stage. They just lack the nuance and vision required. They seem like bros who would be at better ease with the paint-by-the-numbers formula of sitcoms.

Ha! Thanks for this, I completely agree with you, and you’re 100% spot on!

Absolutely agree. It’s not so much about Loras’s competence or nobility as about the way he represents gays – he is in love with a man, yes, but aside from that he is hyper-masculine, having all the virtues (and bone-headed idiocy) that his society says a man should have. That’s where the show falls down – instead of slyly undermining our stereotypes of gay men as universally effeminate not-quite-men like GRRM did, it reinforces them. In fact, if anything he ends up as a satire of the traditional chivalric knight.

As in, I’m not troubled by the fact that the show plays up his foolishness (even in the books, this is a running joke with Olenna), but by the fact that it removes the ways that he represents a strong, masculine image of homosexuality that we don’t get to see very often in the media.

Even without the books, Loras is (for all the foppishness they throw on him on the show) is still seen as a great knight and member of the Kingsguard. You don’t see his interaction with Jaime, which does show respect with a little facepalming, but you still see he is a good knight. I think they’ve treated the character in a silly manner on the show, yes, but I also think that it’s inconsistent that I knight, armed and in practice, would be apprehended by a previously disbanded force that suddenly shows up led by Lancel Lannister, who is NEVER shown to have much in the way of sense or cajones.

For lack of consistency, look at how Jaime’s bathtub scene recalling his choice between honor of allowing KL to be burned and his own father killed was won over by his choice to slay the Mad King. Or Ser Barristan’s response to Cersei/Joffrey’s dismissal of him. THAT is how we are presented with the actions of the Kingsguard on the show, and any slights against its members, yet Loras just gets taken to a cell without fighting? Even without the chest shaving and other sex scenes or the rest of it, we’re presented with the Kingsguard being of a similar character in vow and strength of body and character as the Night’s Watch, yet one of them doesn’t fight the FM? It’s inconsistent.

Well said! I don’t particularly like Loras in the books, he never really stood out for me, but in the books he is greater than the 2 dimensional stereotype that is show Loras.

– First, in the books Cersei tries to plant the idea that Margary isn’t a virgin, and has been sleeping around with multiple men. In the show, they did something more effective: Have Margary sleep with Tommen to hold sway over him.

– They need to have someone arrested by the Sparrows on the Tyrell side, and I think Loras is a good choice. In the books, he goes off to war at Dragonstone, but that plotline is completely over on TV, and wouldn’t make sense to have him get bloodied up / wasted there.

– He was arrested while practicing, probably using dull-edged practice swords. Also, up until then they had been going after lower-class “sinners”, such as brothels, barrels of ale, etc. They had humiliated the former Pope guy, but they didn’t arrest him. I’m not sure anyone expected him to get arrested. Also (maybe it was editing) but I’m imagining most of the Sparrow activities happening in very quick succession, and he might have been caught unaware.

I’m fine with this. His book plotline was going nowhere on the show, and this was a good way to retask him. They couldn’t arrest Margary, so he’s a good replacement.

Also, (to reply to my own comment), Cersei deliberately says “There’s a sinner in our midst”. I can’t imagine the Sparrows going after lower class folks first, and then Loras. They probably went after Loras right away.

I’m going to guess that Loras makes a big comeback after his arrest.

Good points, but the character of Loras, over the entire series, is still sorely underdeveloped. Which is what my overlying problem with what D&D have done with him. On the show, he’s quite nearly unlikable.

Sorry, other reply was to GregE, I’m having a BIT of trouble with the formatting here. At least this page is letting me post!

I do agree, Loras is underdeveloped on the show, and what is developed isn’t particularly pleasant (and I am NOT talking about his sex life, but his generally frilliness and inattention to the death of Renly, etc.). He just seems vapid. And also nothing like a knight.

Yes, but check the scene again. He’s practicing against someone of fairly equal skill, they have squires and at least 6 swords (by my count, steel, who knows how sharp, but there is a VERY good view of Loras’ sword as he hands it to his squire) and spears along with shields. Just no heavy armor (well, seems there at first then hard to tell) The Faith Militant could’ve been cut down very easily. Especially as Loras has no idea who they are, and as Kingsguard would recognize his OWN authority over theirs in KL since he obviously has no idea who they are in the scene, from his perspective it would be his JOB to fight them down and get back to King Tommen to protect him.

Think of the politics and season 1. The fight between Ned and Jaime. That alone was seen as unprecedented and something King Robert wanted put down, but you didn’t see either the Stark or Lannister men backing down when attacked or apprehended. They THREW down. Did Brienne say, “Oh, ok, capture me (again)” at that inn recently? Hell no. Yet Loras lets a few guys weaker than him grab him by his arms after handing his sword over? Just a plot mover that isn’t believable to me. All of Ned’s obstacles in Season 1 were believable obstacles. Intricate, nuanced. This was “Hey, new guys with hammers, go capture an armed Tyrell!”

Lady Olenna could’ve beaten the crap out of Lancel Lannister. Let’s be honest.

Ugh. They should at least have given him a fight. Being hit on the back of the head with a hammer by one FM or overwhelmed by them would’ve at least made sense. Kinda sorta. Maybe make that intro a tad bit shorter (we don’t need a map of EVERY PLACE EVERY WEEK!!) to squeeze a few more minutes in?

I agree that it was wrong that Loras didn’t take out some FM. When Arya’s teacher got confronted and all he had was a wooden sword, homie took out several fully armored knights. Loras with a wooden sword would have at least brained a couple of poorly armed and trained fanatics. Not even a question, at least a couple of swings at the nearest heads would have happened. What’s he got to lose at this point, he already lost his lover, he would have gone for broke. That scene was wrong.

And why is he handing his sword to a squire as these FM freaks storm down the stairs?? And what happens to his buddy with the armor and sword? But Jaime wins a sword fight with his fake hand and the other one missing? I keep expecting Errol Flynn to show up at any moment.

I keep expecting Errol Flynn to show up at any moment.

You make some valid points Mr Razor. However, if you are not careful you will find yourself watching the show just to pick holes in it. It’s not that important. It’s a TV show, a diversion, an entertainment, nothing more. It’s hardly a matter of life or death if the producers adapt the show in a way that is not to your liking. There are a ton of things I would have liked them to have included but I realize that they were not put on this earth to keep me happy. Ditto GRRM – there were great swathes of the last two books that could have been cut or truncated in my opinion – but that’s my problem not his.I think you should counter balance your arguments whilst acknowledging that some of the story lines / character arcs have actually been improved by the producers. If you can’t find them then you really should turn off. This show just isn’t for you and you’ll just become more and more dissatisfied as each episode passes by. Not good for your state of well being. There is only so much negativity we can handle.

I see your point. I am a huge fan of the show, which I guess doesn’t come out in my rants. Perhaps I shall temper future rants with some positive things. Thanks for the feedback!

Still, very well done, David (Razor) Harris! I think it comes across, but I’ve read many of your comments. Just wanted to give a virtual high 5.

I agree he is way cooler in the books, but that being said, so is everyone…

The arrest is indeed rushed. I love the show too and will continue trying to keep things separated, but you can see where we are headed with all the “shortcuts” like Tyrion’s arc and what looks like Arya’s arc, as Meryn Trant is travelling to Bravos soon. While they are giving some storylines more screen time they are omitting a lot of things that I found interesting in the books. All things considered it is kinda fascinating to wait and see where the show is heading, as with all departures from the books and “shortcuts” being a book reader is not an “advantage” anymore.

rex on The Small Council: A look back at “Sons of the Harpy”